article started back in 2005
‘did you hear that so and so caught….’ type conversation was all it took to
get me to write this article. Irrespective of what I said to the other
angler I could not convince him that it was OK to kill a big Sting Ray
for the purposes of weighing in. In fact I was a little shocked at the
level of anxiety shown by the other angler/boat owner. That added to the
amount of sympathy shown to one big and ‘very old’ Stingray got me really
thinking. After all we catch and kill loads of Mackerel for bait don’t we?
What about the poor old mackerel? His bottom line was that we should not be
flying any red rags in ‘the face’ of the anti blood sports protestors and
that really riles me! I had to explore my own feelings, of which I had few
for this one particular Sting Ray, I admit. The
photos of the magnificent dead fish with its captor turned out to be
unsuitable for the local papers! I
I am playing devils advocate a bit here.
I understand that if we can't eat it why kill it. But for true scientific
purposes this is very useful to know.
It transpires that only a ‘handful of
us’ are of this mindset, as the large proportion of our Sea Angling pundits are right behind the match
scene and consider that match fishing is the mainstay of our sport. Is this
correct? I don’t know. This is not a ‘them and us’ article because I like
and understand boat match fishing. I like it too when I win! As I say right
now I just don’t know how the majority of sea anglers HONESTLY feel about
specimen hunting. I think that ‘someone’ should find out.
Although this article is wordy, I
have tried to understand my initial sentiments that has caused some serious
consideration and soul searching since. Following my ‘investigation’ I have
decided that although killing when sea angling is practically unavoidable at
times, there are many of us sea anglers that may still be willing to kill a
quality fish purely to weigh for awards. After all we ARE allowed to do this legally
and quite often encouraged by the rules of our guiding organisations. The
Anglers Trust, EFSA and most affiliated clubs, all leading conservationists in their
own right, often condone the killing fish for records and specimen
What EFSA say about the Sting Ray
The Sting Ray (DASYATIS PASTINACA) is found throughout the Northeast
Atlantic and Mediterranean Sea. The Sting Ray feeds on bottom-living
invertebrates and fishes. These rays are found over sandy and muddy bottoms,
sometimes in estuaries and near rocky reefs. They are ovoviviparous, the
gestation period being about 4 months and 4-7 young are produced. Wings
marketed smoked, dried-salted, and also used for fishmeal and oil. They are
found in subtropical regions between 61°N - 35°S, 19°W - 42°E. The Sting Ray
is harmful to shellfish banks; dangerous to bathers and fishers due to its
poisonous spine. This barbed poison spine is a modified denticle that can be
35cm long, shed occasionally and replaced. The Sting Ray feeds on bottom
fishes, crustaceans and molluscs. The maximum size for a Common Sting Ray is
57.0 cm WD. Its resilience is low and the minimum population doubling time
is 4.5 - 14 years. Information supplied by
we mean by ‘Weighing in’
is basically getting a specimen fish officially recognised and weighed
correctly for claiming a new ‘Club record’ or Club Award or ‘Anglers Trust
record’ or Award or British Record. The British Record seems most unlikely.
However my own club is nearly 46 years old and the there has been a big rise
recently in new records due to reliable outboards, better and more
affordable tackle and navigation equipment plus the success of catch
and release policies. I believe the chances of a British Record are
more favourable now than at any time in the last 20 years. Every time I go
out in my boat I aim for myself or my crew to catch a British Record. I know
what you are thinking, he must be mad. Well maybe I am but this is another
reason for me exploring exactly where we all stand right now. This however
is not high on the list of most serious match anglers, I know. Like (Chris) some say
they will take an 8” Pout any day.
Anglers Trust our leading light, currently state in the Specimen Fish Awards
Scheme, adopted from the NFSA
– All fish must be weighed on land on scales, steelyards or balances. All
weighing must be certified in writing by an official of a recognised angling
club, and two witnesses. All weighing equipment must carry a current
certificate of test.
However in the interests of conservation,
the weight in lbs of species Tope and Shark, may be calculated using the
following formula – Girth x Girth x Length divided by 800. All measurements
in ins. The Girth is the widest part, the length is nose to fork of the
Weighing at Sea
– In addition, provided the registration form so indicates, fish weighed at
sea will be excepted, but any certificates awarded will clearly indicate
that the weight of the fish was estimated and the fish returned alive to the
NOTE: Unfortunately with my vast experience I would not trust the
majority of fish weights given for any fish weighed at sea! They are simply
British Records Fish Committee
BRFC is not part of the Anglers Trust, although it is undeniably very close. To be
successful in claiming a British Record you don’t need to be a member of the
Anglers Trust. But you need to catch the fish by fair angling means (within
guidelines I guess) with witnesses. You can give a signed affidavit if no
witness exists. You then must weigh the fish on certified scales and will
probably need to kill the fish and freeze it down for future identification
if required, usually by a member of the Natural History Museum. It is
because this is of scientific interest that identification is crucial.
Another option is to keep the fish alive in an aquarium but this is very
difficult and not available to the majority of us at the point of capture.
Anglers Trust affiliated clubs
Anglers Trust affiliated clubs require a fish considered for a club award or
record to be weighed on land and on official club scales. This protects an
existing record and should only be beaten by a fish that has been witnessed,
fairly caught, identified and weighed correctly. There is nothing to stop a
smaller potential record fish being kept alive in an aerated bucket.
EFSA has the following rule - 1.8 In the interests of conservation, and if
possible, all fish should be returned alive to the sea, unless required for
record purposes or for consumption.
try to understand from the beginning
Firstly to be a successful ‘angler’ you need to be a hunter, giving way to
those very deep seated hunting instincts. It is a difficult thing to ignore
for most of us, although some manage to deny themselves those feelings. Well
it’s up to them, it’s a free world. I have yet to meet anyone, first timers
to experienced angler, who do not enjoy reeling in a fish whether it their
first or last Rudd, Eel, Gudgeon, Flounder, Wrasse, Stingray, or Tope. It is
how they go about catching and then unhooking them that really counts.
Simply being given the tackle and left to catch a fish without being shown
how, is an extremely difficult task to do. Especially in the ‘right way’
that is demanded in this day and age of ‘political correctness’. As an
accomplished angler you should never underestimate your knowledge and skills
that you have. After all we are talking about an ancient skill, as old as
man. But there are always new things to learn. Such as how some people view
a killed fish and the politics behind it all. In the past it has been muted
that about 4 million of us go fishing. I don’t believe this number, however,
there are many basic angling skills that must be learnt, usually from
someone else. Many of these skills are common across the angling spectrum
but sea angling can be quite different.
help consider your own ‘sea angling knowledge’ imagine finding a beach along
a sea area that you have zero experience of, look outwards and wonder, just
where you would you start. It is difficult from the shore and even more
challenging when fishing from your own boat. This missing information,
required to be successful, is the ‘knowledge factor’ that we all need. Then
there is the skill factor. For example there is no point learning to tie
hooks in the warmth of your front room only to find you can’t use that
method when you are wet and cold under the beam of a head light. Or
practicing your casting in a field when your beach shelves steeply or your
charter boat position forces you to cast ‘the wrong way round’.
What’s the best way to learn?
We could read a book, hire some videos and surf the web but this is a
practical exercise where the skill is discovered and developed in the
practice of angling. The source of knowledge generally comes from those of
us that are already doing this ‘fishing’ thing. You basically pick up the
good and the bad habits from other people. Unknown to most of us we all turn
into amateur teachers when we take our kids or a mate along fishing that are
new to the ‘sport’. We temporarily turn into instructors or facilitators by
providing the knowledge and the tools. If a knowledgeable fishing pal is not
particularly helpful or very articulate we can still copy them! Once the
basics are learnt we will all catch fish most of the time. It is that easy
because there are many fish around. However there are occasions when you can
do everything right and you still won’t catch, you have to learn that too!
Angling should not be confused too much with other types of angling
don’t believe that we should confuse sea angling with the other angling
disciplines, although the antis will. It is quite different. Sure we can
learn from each other but there is not too much more to learn from the carp
boys after the fish handling technique has been adopted, oh, except how to
use a hair rig and how to lay back and relax while your boillie melts!
Sea Anglers we have our own governing body, the Anglers Trust. By their guidance and
organisation we have a common voice that can be heard at a high level in
government and there are good people that work very hard on our behalf. The
‘carpers’ know that certain ‘water’ will hold a certain fish with a certain
scale pattern with a silly name. It becomes odd when ‘Benny’ becomes the
target for a weeks worth of fishing by 4 or 5 syndicate anglers just to say
you have caught it. It certainly makes it harder to argue against the ‘anti
brigade’. Don’t get me wrong I would fight the freshwater anglers corner
when it comes to conservation and the preservation of our fisheries. Without
the freshwater fisheries and their clubs, many of ‘our’ lakes, ponds and
rivers would be in a sorry state
Angling without ‘Casualties’
cannot be denied that along with the joy of ‘angling’ is an unavoidable but
acceptable amount of ‘killing’. This can be seen in itself as another skill
and differentiator. Dispatching must be done quickly and efficiently any
other way is not acceptable. A fish that is ‘lost’ with tackle in tow, or a
deep set hook or just one that is badly handled could perish even when
released. When Sea Angling we sometimes retrieve from very deep water where
certain species like Wrasse, Pollock and Pout with frail swim bladders will
be damaged and will not go back down. If you are squeamish about this you’re
in the wrong sport. Some non-anglers believe that the fish they eat is
actually from Tesco’s and spare themselves to think of the details. When sea
angling, at times, it is absolutely necessary to kill a fish. You need to
either put them out of their misery due to injury, specimen award or for
‘the pan’. Cleaning and preparing a fish for the pan let alone cooking them
are an extra set of skills. This is another differentiator from the
‘Freshwater or Course Angler’. Our sport requires, not just honed manual
skills, taken for granted by all of us, but lots and lots of ‘knowledge’.
Anglers taking fish for the pot
Anglers will always catch a good eating fish from time to time. Successful
boat anglers will catch good eating fish most of the time. Generally to
purchase the same in the shops you will be looking at around £5 a pound and
upwards for most good eating fish. Even skinned Dogfish are around £3 a
pound! So the simple trick is to dispatch ‘a keeper’ quickly with a club or
‘priest’, clean and then, depending on the species, prepare them in
different ways, for the table. For example a Plaice, Flounder, Pout or
Whiting etc are best filleted and then cooked and eaten as fresh as
possible. Even the Tesco’s or Sainsbury’s fishmonger is unable to provide
such fresh fish compared to what we are blessed with. While Sole and Skate,
in my opinion, improve by being left in the fridge for up to 6 days or even
frozen first. Bass should have the gills slit to be bled when caught and
Turbot, Brill and Sole benefit from having the tail slit open to allow them
to bleed. Anyway my point is that Sea Anglers do kill fish for the pan. It
is one of the best forms of protein we can get. We will never be denied this
by law and it is very difficult to police. I believe this to be another huge
difference between Sea Anglers and Freshwater Anglers.
not kill a certain amount of your Sea Angling catch to eat is tantamount to
throwing ‘tenners’ into the ocean. It is hard work cleaning and filleting
your catch correctly but definitely worth it in the long run. This week at
home we had Sole and Black Bream in the fridge, ready to eat. How can I
justify throwing them back when they can make an extremely good and healthy
dinner and when there are so many out there.
Anyway, whatever your angling fancy, we all like to see and catch a good
stock of quality fish of any species that turn up in our local waters. This
year in the Solent Wight Area we have been blessed with some quality Black
Bream, Smoothound, Stingray more Brill and a good run of specimen Bass. It
is great to catch these fish, take what you need, then release the rest
along with any undersized fish. Many, many Black Bream were returned this
year that were above or around the specimen size. Most Stingers are released
without even hitting the deck. The trouble is with all of these fish they
are very easy to catch, once the skipper has put you over the fish holding
areas. When you are on the Bream like I was this weekend we could have
caught as many as we liked and kept as many as we liked. The quality was
good with fish averaging around 1.5 – 2lb, a good eating size. I had a hell
of a job convincing my buddy that he did not need to feed his entire
neighbourhood. With that I got the comment that most charter skippers would
get ‘I don’t go fishing very often, let alone catch so many fish’. My answer
to that was for us to stop fishing and start cleaning. It’s my boat and it
wasn’t chartered so it is easy for me to say. The gloss soon wears off. So
with your hands spiked and the fish cleaned, bagged up and in the freezer
box we moved to try another mark, where we caught more Bream! Only now my
buddy was releasing his fish too, he realised that he had bagged enough! He
was a bit like a fox in a hen house, for a while. I hope I passed on a
useful lesson but this is a self taught discipline and experienced anglers
have to pass it on to everyone else. If these quality fish are released they
will return in far greater numbers. If all regular anglers release the
majority of their catch it will make a big difference to our future. This
must be the reason for the ever present Dogfish, how many of us ever kill
them? By the way if you want to dispatch a dogfish correctly you have to
snap their necks. It is not easy and must be done very quickly.
reports these fish catches? It is us anglers normally but why tell anyone
else? Some do it for Marketing and Commercial reasons, more obviously the
Sea Angler magazine. Their editing team is the ‘Marketing King’ of our sport
and pastime. Interestingly I have a lot of Sea Angler magazines dating from
1977. It certainly has transformed a good subject for another article. This
web site www.sea-fishing.net is a hobby of mine. It gives me something to do
when I am bored and feeling constructive. Human nature is such that if you
tell others honestly how you do, they eventually trust you, and then they
often honestly tell you what they do. The information becomes ‘shared’ and
your personal ‘knowledge factor’ increased. If it was not for the magazines
stuffed with fellow anglers holding pictures of good fish, certainly less
people would participate in the sport and buy less tackle and bait. As an
active club member I have always liked the club that I belong to be active,
sociable and available to provide a service for the common cause, Sea
Angling. Some members, of whom we have few in our club, are complete out and
out match anglers. This takes a huge amount of dedication that is just short
of an obsession. Is all this intended for us just to spend lots of money
with tackle dealers? I think not. But there are certain people that are on
the gravy train and who can blame them. The main reason we tell other
anglers what we have ‘caught’ is that it helps them too. Why would anyone
ever want to enter a competition? Well you would certainly learn a lot and
can see how you compare with others. Whatever takes your fancy, but it is
usually competitions or specimen fishing or both that we want to do.
There are very few Sea Anglers that go fishing on their own, catch good
fish, never tell anyone and release them all. A successful hunter
displays his ‘catch’ or ‘prize’ to friends and family as ‘that is what we
However here’s the dilemma. To win awards that are given by our respected
Anglers Trust you have to identify correctly and weigh a fish on certificated scales.
How do you keep such a big fish alive to weigh, identify and collect
evidence of the capture? It is difficult. How can you achieve major awards
in a sport where the skill of an angler is often measured by the quality
(specimen fishing) of the fish he catches? The skipper should be recognised
too. Look in the magazines, all the pictures are primarily of the best fish
with those that are weighed and released being given an estimated weight.
Most clubs have gone a long way in getting their match fishing rectified
with a catch and release system. But the Awards for Trophy fish is a prickly
issue, believe me. There are many anglers that are afraid to weigh in a big
fish correctly on land for a record due to pressure applied by the
commercial people. This is purely because of the threat by the ‘antis’.
Charter skippers, tackle dealers and tackle manufacturers have their lively
hoods on the line here. Hence the seriousness of it all and there are no
jokes to be flouted around this particular subject, have you noticed. It can
almost be a taboo to kill a fish in some areas. Passive smoking no problem,
kill your fellow drinkers slowly but knock a big inedible fish on the head,
no way! As individuals we have choices and we can currently choose to keep
or release any fish that is above the legal MAFF size limit. Currently the
Anglers Trust and many of their affiliated clubs support the killing of a specimen
fish. I personally can’t see the problem but I think that it could change
for the better. I have personally released hundreds of sizable, edible and
non-edible fish this year. I have weighed in three or four for club FOMs for
my kids, then we have eaten them. No problems there. But I am not without
Monkfish off the Needles
1985 a friend of mine caught a Monkfish of 37lb 2oz in the Solent in his own
boat, a cracking and at the time rare species for this area. This was a new
club record for the STAAC (Southampton Telephone Area Angling Club), a long
standing club. Then just eight weeks later I caught a 37lb 6oz Monkfish about 2
miles south of the light on Lady M, beating the record by just 4ozs. After
the weighing and photographing I tried to eat it, horrible.
Note: They do not taste
like Monk fish, in fact, it is because they are not! The Monk in a
fishmongers is actually an Angler Fish! I did feel terrible about dumping
what was left. It was a waste.
A few weeks later another Monkfish about the
same size was also caught by another friend of mine. Well, they were the
last Monkfish that I am aware of being caught in the
/ Wight area on rod and line. Not a nice thought and a small cross to bear. The lack of
knowledge was the main cause but the lure of a Trophy, a record and a
picture in the paper was also high on the list, I admit.
Current dilemma of weighing a fish for awards
anglers just go for the day out, in ignorant bliss of all that happens
around them. I used to see this often on charter boat trips. But the
backbone of sea anglers, the ones that spend their own money on their boats,
tackle and charter bookings on a regular basis, have their Personal Bests of
each species to consider. Then there are the club, area and national records
and awards. Currently it is down to individual choice. There is no law
against killing a sizable fish. In the past my club, Ashlett SAC, banned
stingers from boat comps but as we now employ catch and release allowing for
the approximate weight of the Stinger to count; there is no reason not to
count them. This is all based on trust. The quantity issue (match fishing)
is also addressed by catch and release schemes now well adopted. The quality
issue is not so clear. How many Sea Anglers can successfully guess the
weight of their ‘once in a life-time fish’ across say 20 key species…..not
many. How many anglers can weigh a fish over 40lb on a boat accurately…..not
many. It is in the hands of the clubs and the Anglers Trust that’s for sure.
was at an AGM this year with a new club. They had a ‘thin looking’ records
list and the general comment from the floor was that no one wanted to kill
the fish to weigh them in. Was it just an excuse for not being able to catch
them? I think not. Mad, in my opinion, as the situation needs resolving.
Either have a records list or don’t. Either allow catch and release or
don’t. Either trust your fellow members or don’t. I know of others club
members that have absolved an existing club, renamed themselves and started
a new records list, mad. A good club has a quality history and a quality
records list. A good club will have been well organised and stood the test
of time where all the fish have been weighed on club scales and identified
correctly by an experienced weigh-in officer. In my opinion if you can’t
beat them, join them.
surely there is room for other methods and means of forming a records list
by using photography and the use of an individuals quality scales that can
be checked soon afterwards, affidavits or witnesses etc. This must be a way
forward where the evidence can be checked by committee and then ratified.
Fish kept alive weighed ashore and then released is very practical for many
smaller species. Later, if any suspicions arise this should allow for the
record to be nullified by the committee. I believe that this has happened
with the British Records Fish Committee in the past. The key to all this is
trust. Unfortunately who can we trust?
is ironic that the recent moan has been kicked off over one fish mainly
because it is such a huge and traditionally inedible fish. It could be a bit
‘of the old green eye’ maybe but I don’t think so. The fact that Stingers of
this size, are still around and appear to be recovering in numbers, is a
little awe inspiring. No one would be aware of that fish if Roger had not
weighed it properly. Scientifically it is interesting too. Roger thought
this Stinger was around 45lb. The fact that it was actually around 55lb is
useful to science and conservation. The fact that stingers of this size are
around at all has to be mainly due to the local standard bearers of
conservation within our long standing local clubs. These anglers are the
ones that have been actively releasing 99% of Stingers over the last 15
years. It is still the case and it is ironic that after all the hard work
that ‘we’ have done and that after the recent ‘successes’ those people
involved get hammered on the ‘local grapevine’. It has to be known that
Sting Ray are spectacular fighting fish. They can come up from 60ft and flap
across the surface and then dive back down again before dragging you uptide.
Excuse me, but if this is not what you want then there is something missing.
With the stingray that has recently been recorded at 53lb 8oz we know that
the conservation methods are working. What we need to do now is have a
method of successfully weighing these larger fish on the boat relatively
accurately. Proving the weight or keeping them alive for weighing.
If emotionally removed
emotionally removed from all this, killing one Stingray could possibly be
justified. After all it would have eaten many more fish in the weeks and
months since its capture! The fish is one of the biggest in its species and
therefore is well past useful breeding condition and has it days numbered.
The fact that it was hooked and released will not always ensure that it will
survive as the fight could have exhausted the big old fish to a point of non
recovery. But the Antis would love to ban Course fishing. A dead fish, is a
dead fish, and will be confused by the antis with all ‘fishing’. Sea
angling, particularly from private boats, would be at a minimum
risk. So a private boat owning angler could say stuff the rest of you. But
wouldn’t it be good if we could weigh and release any fish at any time? With
every serious sea angler having their own set of quality 100lb scales, a
camera and ways to collect evidence of an exceptional fish. I don’t do this
myself so I can’t say that we should all do this but the serious fish loving
Trophy hunter might like to consider this as an option.
Specimen boat fishing kit list
is ideal but many would argue impractical for the few fish that we actually
catch over 20lb and that we are actually interested in weighing. Congers
will normally be estimated and released during freelance sessions and netted
and weighed in the net with the net weight then deducted from the total. It
is as simple as that.
If you are a serious specimen hunter this is what you need
Large landing net
– Big enough to take a 75lb plus Conger, a 40lb Blonde Ray or 60lb Stinger.
I recommend Stainless Steve’s landing net and increase the bag size with one
of your own.
Small landing Net
– Light and convenient for the smaller species.
- in ins to ‘weigh’ Tope and Sharks (Girth x Girth x Length divided by
– A safe
flo carp sack is fitted with D rings and measures 1200mm x 900mm. (48" x
38") at £8.99 but you could go top
of the range and a Fox safety weigh sling allowing fish to be transported
safely. On this one there is a venting system to drain excess water and is
suitable for fish up to 80lb! Cost around £22.95.
lined with a slippery PVC coated nylon to prevent fish damage. (I use just
the net from an old freshwater landing net! Others use a plastic bag).
Quality large scales
would recommend something like the Rod Hutchinson specimen weigh scales that
are produced by Reuben Heaton.
They have a luminous face and are
marked in both lbs and kgs and weigh up to 50kg (112lbs) in 4oz graduations..
Quality general scales
– This is very important as most specimen fish will fall into this range. I
like to weigh all my best fish then I can honestly report exactly how big
Avon Mk7 Dial Scales are very
difficult to better. The 3in dial has four colours and the indicator makes
four revolutions to reach its weighing capacity of 40lb. It weighs down to
1oz! The value of each revolution is indicated by a coupled matching flash
– I have a big keepnet on my boat that I found in a shop while I was in
South Africa, it does not like a lot of tide, although it works fairly well
still as it has 1” square netting. Traditional freshwater knotless mesh type
keep nets will get wrecked very quickly if there is any tide. The last fish
I kept alive to weigh was a 16lb Conger that my lad caught. Not very big
admittedly but everything else that I have had since and not required for
eating, has gone back straight away. This is a real problem for shore
anglers when there is any breaking sea and for boat anglers fishing in
strong tides. I remember one being produced about fifteen years ago but I could
not find a reference to them on the internet.
Large Fish box with lid or bait tank
– To be filled with water that should be changed regularly. A large enough
tank for a 10lb plus fish is a problem for small boats and shore anglers.
Some Charter skippers such as Roger Bayzand successfully kept Congers
alive for weighing ashore right up to 100lb!
Note if a lid is closed over a
filled box on a boat, generally the rocking of the boat will force enough
air into the water to ensure the fish lives. If too many fish are put in
together they will all die without regular water changes, a sea water pump
or an aerator.
Aerator or water pump
– To allow the water to be aerated or changed automatically. This is a
problem on small boats with outboards charging small batteries. My battery
operated aerator did not last long after getting a soaking a couple of
– To prep up your official ‘weigher’ and more important for safety reasons.
– To take those just caught, to scale photos that display the key parts of
your specimen fish for positive identification. Note digital pictures
although very good can be manipulated and enhanced with special software.
– Lythgoe very useful for those Rays, Herrings, Wrasse and smaller exotic
species that seem to become more prevalent during our late summers and
Anglers Trust and their affiliated clubs should continue to develop all aspects of
conservation. All ‘awards’ should be available to well weighed, documented,
correctly identified and photographed, fairly caught and released
specimen fish. We would all prefer to see a quality picture of ‘our fish of
a lifetime’ as well as have the image in our mind, of seeing it swim away
hard from the shore or the boat to fight another day.
Ideally the Anglers Trust should give guidelines and the affiliated clubs should
attempt to ensure that all their anglers are capable of weighing any fish
likely to be caught in their area. Sharks and Tope are already covered.
Preserving a fish for weighing should be done in a way that ensures the fish
can be kept alive for weighing ashore or be weighed and released on the
beach or boat with sufficient evidence and for the fish to survive. Handling
the fish after landing is very important to a fish’s survival.
In my opinion it should NOT be left to the individual but should be guided
by the Anglers Trust and the affiliated clubs. That is what they are there for.
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